Most of this stuff is purely hypothetical, and I assume that all "imaginary" players I use are around are about as good (when compared to each other) and are at the highest possible "level" in their respective mods.
Adding dojo makes wushu bit "better" (as in more competitive) if we look this at purely theoretical level.
Limited space == less room to maneuvere/run == easier to catch an escape opponent. Right?
But in game it's not that simple. To quote killer3366: "So you added dojo? I can still run.".
It's always easier to move to any other direction than one, than it is to move to that one direction.
That's just how things work, right?
Even if you add dojo, at best you only remove two or three directions "runner" can move towards.
What "runner" has left is still more than what "chaser" has. (..And in most cases you can just gamble it by jumping OUT of the ring.)
Basically Wushu's problem is the ease of "stalling" the game and winning by basically not doing anything.
If you have lead it's more beneficial to avoid doing anything/avoid "gameplay" than to actually do something.
Yes, we could "ban" running/escaping/avoiding contact, but where do you draw the line? What's "dodging" and what's "avoiding contact"?
And if we do ban "running", shouldn't we also ban "shovels", "snapkicks", "rush openers", "lifts", etc etc etc?
Pardon me ABD players & duelers, most of my knowledge is a bit old here so do correct me if I'm wrong.
As fun it is to bash ABD for sake of being "hipster" or whatever, I do agree that it does what it tries to do.
It's relatively simple to pick up, has it's own metagame and "nuances"going and at the moment it is probably the second most played mod. (Most played being aikido, because it's defaul mod..)
Anyhow, in my opinion ABD's problem (from competitive point of view, as usual) is actually exactly the same as with wushu.
After you gain that advantage it's too easy to keep it by doing "nothing".
This usually happens as early as around 4th or 5th turn.
If you by that point have 10-15k (pulling these figures out of my ass, sorry. :<) lead you have basically won the game.
(This might be old info, I'm not really that familiar with current ABD dueling metagame/shenaningans atm).
At that point you usually have both hands grabbed, in "best" case scenario whoever has the lead controls both of the grabs too.
He has 15k lead and will win the game in "few" turns. If both player are top notch and TRULY playing to win, you can't really do anything past that point
(except if the opponent makes a huge mistake..), because both players know how to avoid getting lifted/doing anything stupid and the guy with point lead has huge advantage due to controlling grabs (and having that lead).
Yes, you could argue that whoever got the lead is better player and that keeping the lead requires more skill, but..
tl;dr: Both wushu and ABD are problematic due to how easy it is to win by getting early lead and then just avoiding to do "anything that endangers the lead". Which more or less turns the game into opener based a rock-scissors-paper game.
Pardon all typos & other grammatical fuck ups. Tired. All-nigher. No coffee.
Originally Posted by deprav
brushu.tbm, 2K frames, a ring. Most competitive mod ever.
Anyone that wanna try to prove wrong is welcome.
Adding dojo makes wushu bit "better" (as in more competitive) if we look this at purely theoretical level.
Limited space == less room to maneuvere/run == easier to catch an escape opponent. Right?
But in game it's not that simple. To quote killer3366: "So you added dojo? I can still run.".
It's always easier to move to any other direction than one, than it is to move to that one direction.
That's just how things work, right?
Even if you add dojo, at best you only remove two or three directions "runner" can move towards.
What "runner" has left is still more than what "chaser" has. (..And in most cases you can just gamble it by jumping OUT of the ring.)
Basically Wushu's problem is the ease of "stalling" the game and winning by basically not doing anything.
If you have lead it's more beneficial to avoid doing anything/avoid "gameplay" than to actually do something.
Yes, we could "ban" running/escaping/avoiding contact, but where do you draw the line? What's "dodging" and what's "avoiding contact"?
And if we do ban "running", shouldn't we also ban "shovels", "snapkicks", "rush openers", "lifts", etc etc etc?
Originally Posted by Shmevin
I'm no aikidobigdojo.tbm nazi, but in my opinion it is one of the most competitive and fair mods around. It is easy to learn, but difficult to master. Its larger dojo and increased matchframes offers the area and the time to not only survive moves, but counter them as well. As a result, it is not just a game of who could get the upper hand first and take advantage of it, but who is the most experienced and knowledgeable of the mod itself.
Of course, this conversation also requires discussion on the concept of fair play and correctly playing the mod as intended. To hate aikidobigdojo because it allows point holds, pin downs, leg grabs, whatever you hate about it is the same as someone hating aikido for allowing easy wins via shovels or lifts. I play aikidobigdojo like I was playing aikido. I use my opponent's force against him in a turnover, suplex, or throwing fashion.
The only difference is I have a much larger space to work with, as well as more time to perform my counter. THAT is why people love aikidobigdojo.
Pardon me ABD players & duelers, most of my knowledge is a bit old here so do correct me if I'm wrong.
As fun it is to bash ABD for sake of being "hipster" or whatever, I do agree that it does what it tries to do.
It's relatively simple to pick up, has it's own metagame and "nuances"going and at the moment it is probably the second most played mod. (Most played being aikido, because it's defaul mod..)
Anyhow, in my opinion ABD's problem (from competitive point of view, as usual) is actually exactly the same as with wushu.
After you gain that advantage it's too easy to keep it by doing "nothing".
This usually happens as early as around 4th or 5th turn.
If you by that point have 10-15k (pulling these figures out of my ass, sorry. :<) lead you have basically won the game.
(This might be old info, I'm not really that familiar with current ABD dueling metagame/shenaningans atm).
At that point you usually have both hands grabbed, in "best" case scenario whoever has the lead controls both of the grabs too.
He has 15k lead and will win the game in "few" turns. If both player are top notch and TRULY playing to win, you can't really do anything past that point
(except if the opponent makes a huge mistake..), because both players know how to avoid getting lifted/doing anything stupid and the guy with point lead has huge advantage due to controlling grabs (and having that lead).
Yes, you could argue that whoever got the lead is better player and that keeping the lead requires more skill, but..
tl;dr: Both wushu and ABD are problematic due to how easy it is to win by getting early lead and then just avoiding to do "anything that endangers the lead". Which more or less turns the game into opener based a rock-scissors-paper game.
Pardon all typos & other grammatical fuck ups. Tired. All-nigher. No coffee.
Last edited by Dargon; Oct 1, 2013 at 02:11 PM.
< Larfen> also my replay thread has more views than the rules thread \o/
...This probably explains most problems in this community.
...This probably explains most problems in this community.
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