@ImmortalPig:
In addition to giving more Reaction Time, I too agree increasing the amount of games played *maybe to 5 or 7 for instance* would help. It would even help my point about "mistakes", which I'm realizing now isn't the right way to put it.
To go back to SC2's example- if you miss macro and hit a supply cap, that mistake stinks, but it happens even at Master League level of play. In fact how often you're hitting the supply cap and getting stuck is one of like the top 3 things that indicates what league you'll probably be in. But if a SC2 game's average length was .... IDK 3 minutes long, then hitting a supply cap, however innocent it might be, would outright lose the game for you MOST of the time.
Should the better player not have made the "mistake" in the first place? Yes. More often than not will he avoid doing so? Yeah. But by increasing both the duration of the fight AND the amount of games played, you have yourself a set of conditions where the player more prone to winning has the time and opportunity to show it better.
So I agree with you.
In addition to giving more Reaction Time, I too agree increasing the amount of games played *maybe to 5 or 7 for instance* would help. It would even help my point about "mistakes", which I'm realizing now isn't the right way to put it.
To go back to SC2's example- if you miss macro and hit a supply cap, that mistake stinks, but it happens even at Master League level of play. In fact how often you're hitting the supply cap and getting stuck is one of like the top 3 things that indicates what league you'll probably be in. But if a SC2 game's average length was .... IDK 3 minutes long, then hitting a supply cap, however innocent it might be, would outright lose the game for you MOST of the time.
Should the better player not have made the "mistake" in the first place? Yes. More often than not will he avoid doing so? Yeah. But by increasing both the duration of the fight AND the amount of games played, you have yourself a set of conditions where the player more prone to winning has the time and opportunity to show it better.
So I agree with you.
Last edited by Bodhisattva; Dec 20, 2013 at 06:38 PM.
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Creati0n says: still my favorite. <3
I sacrificed my firstborn for this great human being to join (M) ~R
Just Use Thunder!
Originally Posted by Lazors
You can't base skill only on adaptation, a game with flaws is a game with flaws. Someone who takes advantage of a glitch/flaw/questionable mechanic isn't necessarily the better player.
Such games as Super Smash Bros Melee would like to have a word with you.
To play it at competitive level you have to know how to utilize "core glitches", such as wavedashing.
Oh did I mention that it's also THE MOST WATCHED FIGHTING GAME IN HISTORY? (awws, apparently mighty Mahvel managed to get more viewers after all, so it's only second most watched. ;<)
Hell, most of the gamers who play in a professional level use EVERY SINGLE ADVANTAGE THEY CAN. Including glitches and more than questionable mechanics, may those be predetermined spread patterns in guns or unbreakable combos.. Not to mention infamous Shen + Pudge combo from DOTA2...
Originally Posted by Lazors
And yes, you could say "if you can't counter, you suck", and that's partially true, but when a new player defeats an experienced player with a move that wrecks the experience and gameplay, I would lay the fault on the game and not the player.
This is true if you play to have fun & enjoy yourself, but not when we're playing to win. Then everything goes and no hold is barred. We're not there to have fun (well, I am, but that's beside the point), but to win.
All most complained/"banned" moves can be classified to "cheese".
In a nutshell: "Cheese" is a all-in stragety that you either see comming and beat or don't and you lose.
If you fell to the cheese then you fell to it. No excuses can or should be made. Cheesing is cheesy, but if it wins you the game, it does what it was supposed to do. Yes, I do admit that it's annoying etc (I'd link a post where I explain my views about cheesing, but can't find it atm..)
But even the guys who play Starcraft 2 for a living mix cheese in their games. Why? Because it keeps the opponnet guessing your real strategy and gameplan. It wins games.
And easiest way to avoid "cheesing" is to play games in best of x formats. Shovels etc are only problem when you play single loss and you're out style of tourneys (and don't expect them).
Originally Posted by Lazors
I don't want to take this too far and enforce gameplay on anyone, I'm talking about the most obvious, game-breaking flaws.
Such as?
Originally Posted by Lazors
The concept of competitivity, in my opinion, is that a game can't be won by a less experienced player.
Experience is just one part of knowledge and skill required to good. Being experienced doesn't automatically make you better player. It gives you an edge but ultimately doesn't make you better than the guy who started a month ot two later than you did.
Gonna use LoL as an example here: In Season 2 Championships, there was a guy called Shy who had been playing League of Legends around 6 months, as opposed to guys who had been playing since the beta, so they had been playing the game over 3 years. So they had 6 times the "experience" of Shy. Yet Shy and his team Azubu Frost stomped their way trough these guys and mamaged to place 2nd in the championships. :P (Actually, all Asian teams started playing almost year later than any American/European team...)
Anyhow, back to Toribash...
Byt his logic the best players of Toribash would be JePoY and Tripstone or me. Tripstone & JePoY are the guys who have most games played. And I'm they guy who has been here longest time actively playing. (Might be wrong with that tho, who knows. Maybe some oldie has been flying under the radar all this time. :P)
Am I the best or is Tripstone or JePoY the best? No. At his time JePoY was good, but nowdays he'd be nothing special. Tripstone has aged better. He's still good but way from being the best. And me? Well, there was time when I was the best taekkyon player around (pretty much by just staying here untill everyone else stopped playing) but it'd be a stretch to rank me even in the top 10 best taekkyon players at the moment
Originally Posted by Lazors
Most games ensure this with powerups, but a game like toribash, which manages beautifully without them will have to pay extra attention to make the game balanced.
Much of the faults lies in the mod. A mod that relies on the opener and has a big luck-factor (high DM) is a mod where a new player can defeat an experienced player very easially, and thus isn't very competitive.
The solution to maintaining the huge variety of mods without fucking up the ranking system and ELO, would be to have a few approved mods with official ranking and whatnot, and the rest of the mods would still be playable without ranking.
I don't think the community alone should decide which mods should be ranked. It needs approval from a higher authority, who should naturally have a good knowledge about the different mods. (In other words, I would never put an smod in that position, and probably not a GM either).
If the community in, say LoL requested a glitchy/gamebreaking feature, they wouldn't allow it. Why should this be any different?
We all know that the grabs in toribash has to be re-made, but there are lots of other ways to deal with a gameplay issue in a mod.
I'll take ABD as an example. How do we deal with random dm's and kicking?
It's not that kicking is a bad move, but the very purpose of the move is to defeat a better player by dm'ing his joints, and here we got the luck aspect again.
A solution would be to make the legs and arms immune to DM (specifically in abd, and maybe a few other mods), so the only joints that would DM is the head, chest cluster and groin cluster. This would prevent a foot from falling off and dq'ing you, prevent kicks from being unbalanced, and would add an actual use for fracs in the game, since arms and legs would stil get frac'd.
And thus, we solved a great luck factor in the game, and made it more competitive.
Another example we've all heard before is the alternative score system. A mechanic that would give a different score depending on which bodypart you hit.
Just think of the wushu event a while back, wushu in blood I think it was. Now how much would that increase competitivity? Runners would actually have to strike a joint that's hard to hit before running away. -Huge part of the issue in wushu solved-
And of course, this would give boxing mods and sword mods a huge lift too.
So, pretty much, make the game adapt to you and not the other way around. I'm not expecting big changes in a while, but we have to consider it if we want to make a competitive e-sport game. Using the argument of old replays not being playable on a new version will just have the game stay on the same page.
I'd like to see a consistent GMTourney ladder, as well as tournament events being spectateable and filmed (we have a community whith one of the main purpose being videomaking, and we have filmed one championship - in history? Whaaat?).
The concept of competitivity, in my opinion, is that a game can't be won by a less experienced player.
[/Quote]
Experience is just one part of knowledge and skill required to good. Being experienced doesn't automatically make you better player. It gives you an edge but ultimately doesn't make you better than the guy who started a month ot two later than you did.
Gonna use LoL as an example here: In Season 2 Championships, there was a guy called Shy who had been playing League of Legends around 6 months, as opposed to guys who had been playing since the beta, so they had been playing the game over 3 years. So they had 6 times the "experience" of Shy. Yet Shy and his team Azubu Frost stomped their way trough these guys and mamaged to place 2nd in the championships. :P (Actually, all Asian teams started playing almost year later than any American/European team...)
Anyhow, back to Toribash...
Byt his logic the best players of Toribash would be JePoY and Tripstone or me. Tripstone & JePoY are the guys who have most games played. And I'm they guy who has been here longest time actively playing. (Might be wrong with that tho, who knows. Maybe some oldie has been flying under the radar all this time. :P)
Am I the best or is Tripstone or JePoY the best? No. At his time JePoY was good, but nowdays he'd be nothing special. Tripstone has aged better. He's still good but way from being the best. And me? Well, there was time when I was the best taekkyon player around (pretty much by just staying here untill everyone else stopped playing) but it'd be a stretch to rank me even in the top 10 best taekkyon players atm.
Originally Posted by Lazors
Most games ensure this with powerups, but a game like toribash, which manages beautifully without them will have to pay extra attention to make the game balanced.
The game is actually ALMOST perfectly balanced. Yes, uke is bit heavier than tori, and that's the only thing that makes Toribash not perfectly balanced. And even there the difference is almost non-existent.
Also, I can't name even one actually competitive game where "powerups" or such make you better than your competitors.
Originally Posted by Lazors
The solution to maintaining the huge variety of mods without fucking up the ranking system and ELO, would be to have a few approved mods with official ranking and whatnot, and the rest of the mods would still be playable without ranking.
I agree wholeheartedly. I've suggested official servers etc dozens of times. Maybe the higher ups actually get the idea someday.
Originally Posted by Lazors
I don't think the community alone should decide which mods should be ranked. It needs approval from a higher authority, who should naturally have a good knowledge about the different mods. (In other words, I would never put an smod in that position, and probably not a GM either).
If the community in, say LoL requested a glitchy/gamebreaking feature, they wouldn't allow it. Why should this be any different?
Who actually know the game better and should actually give their opinion about the game than the guys and galls who play it? You're kinda implying that Admins or Devs should decide these things, right?
..Well, the fact is: most of them haven't even touched the game in years.
Riot's balancing and feature implemntation has been hilariously bad at worst. Admitedly they've stepped up their game lately, but still some of their decissions leave room for improvement....
Originally Posted by Lazors
We all know that the grabs in toribash has to be re-made, but there are lots of other ways to deal with a gameplay issue in a mod.
Why they should be remade? How would that affect the gazillion mods that require grab but are not aikido?
I'm all into adding new "mutators", such as Grab threshold, grab time etc, but redoing the whole grab system (for one mod basically)? Nah. Maybe in Toribash 2.
Originally Posted by Lazors
I'll take ABD as an example. How do we deal with random dm's and kicking?
It's not that kicking is a bad move, but the very purpose of the move is to defeat a better player by dm'ing his joints, and here we got the luck aspect again.
A solution would be to make the legs and arms immune to DM (specifically in abd, and maybe a few other mods), so the only joints that would DM is the head, chest cluster and groin cluster. This would prevent a foot from falling off and dq'ing you, prevent kicks from being unbalanced, and would add an actual use for fracs in the game, since arms and legs would stil get frac'd.
And thus, we solved a great luck factor in the game, and made it more competitive.
I repeat (for what seems like thousandth time..) there is no suck thing as "random DM/fracture".
Kicks and DMs aren't even the biggest problem in aikido variants and funnily enough most of the pro duelers seem to agree with me.
Other than that: Make a mod you descriped. Play it and see if people like it.
We did this with tk (unbreakable wrists) played few games and noticed that it was utterly unbalanced. Then Erth came with ErthTk and ErthTkv2 after bit of testing. We could still improve that, but it's hardly topic for this thread.
Originally Posted by Lazors
Another example we've all heard before is the alternative score system. A mechanic that would give a different score depending on which bodypart you hit.
Just think of the wushu event a while back, wushu in blood I think it was. Now how much would that increase competitivity? Runners would actually have to strike a joint that's hard to hit before running away. -Huge part of the issue in wushu solved-
And of course, this would give boxing mods and sword mods a huge lift too.
As I said with grabs, I'm all into new mutators. Worst they can do is to cause devs work to go waste.
I disagree with it fixing wushu tho. Even now people who play wushu to win do huge attacks to get the point lead and then run. So nothing would change. They'd just get less points. Wushu can be fixed and the ways to do that have been suggested by dozens of guys already.
Originally Posted by Lazors
So, pretty much, make the game adapt to you and not the other way around. I'm not expecting big changes in a while, but we have to consider it if we want to make a competitive e-sport game. Using the argument of old replays not being playable on a new version will just have the game stay on the same page.
Why should the game adapt to players? Look at the most AAA games and where they have ended up by doing this.
Chess hasn't really adapted to people in last 1400 years and I don't really see it doing so in next 1400 years either. And unlike Toribash chess is pretty much figured out by now.
Also, the game I mentioned above, Super Smash Brosh Melee, it hasn't been patched or altered in any way in last 12 years. Neither was it made to be competitive game.
And yet it somehow managed to be most watched fighting game of all time this year. (For a while!) And the competitive scene is still going strong after all these years (and a sequel!).
Also, CS 1.6.
As I've said before: Toribash's biggest problem in being an e-sport is the community.
Originally Posted by Lazors
I'd like to see a consistent GMTourney ladder, as well as tournament events being spectateable and filmed (we have a community whith one of the main purpose being videomaking, and we have filmed one championship - in history? Whaaat?).
GMtourneys (as fun they are) are flawed due to their single elimination knockout format. There used to be thread that listed people with most wins in GM run events, but it died.
I do agree that it's sad that no other event has been really recorded like Best of the Best was. Why? No one has ever seen enough interest from community to make making video out of it worth it. And then there have been problems of players forgoting to save the replays etc etc etc..
But I do think that few of the Clan League matches were streamed by some user. Why finals etc weren't? No idea. Maybe he lost drive to do it.
< Larfen> also my replay thread has more views than the rules thread \o/
...This probably explains most problems in this community.
...This probably explains most problems in this community.
Originally Posted by DrHax
To go back to SC2's example- if you miss macro and hit a supply cap, that mistake stinks, but it happens even at Master League level of play. In fact how often you're hitting the supply cap and getting stuck is one of like the top 3 things that indicates what league you'll probably be in. But if a SC2 game's average length was .... IDK 3 minutes long, then hitting a supply cap, however innocent it might be, would outright lose the game for you MOST of the time.
If SC2 games were 3 minutes long, absolutely no one in the pro level would ever cap themselves.
And if they did accidentally, they would say "I deserved to lose since I made a huge mistake".
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Originally Posted by Dargon
GMtourneys (as fun they are) are flawed due to their single elimination knockout format. There used to be thread that listed people with most wins in GM run events, but it died.
I disagee here. I rarely lose to non-duel players, same in these tourneys. Even with the 1 lose KO policy, I still win quite a large percentage of all GMtourneys I join and participate in. So I think it doesn't really matter. I'd better play like this and see a winner in like an hour, than play full 2 hours in an old-style tourney.
Originally Posted by Dargon
Chess hasn't really adapted to people in last 1400 years and I don't really see it doing so in next 1400 years either. And unlike Toribash chess is pretty much figured out by now.
(..)
As I've said before: Toribash's biggest problem in being an e-sport is the community.
I agree here.
Me, I'd play more competitive in Toribash, if it was more rewarding. As of now, there is like zero players who duel... so I have no point in improving my play and sitting in the lab thinking how to be the best player and win them.
Pretty much, the only people that would duel me (or let's say any alt or any person, who's not expected to be bad ingame) are a few old times duel players, who mostly play only one mod and are too hard to win and bothersome to even try.
If there was 10k duel rooms around 24 / 7, that would motivate me to be a way more competitive player and really improve my play...
Originally Posted by JSnuffMARS
I have no point in improving my play and sitting in the lab thinking how to be the best player and win them.
What about for the purpose of being the best. That's the objective of mostly every game, even if it isn't the main objective, it's always there.
There's always the point where you play to improve and be better then everyone, ensuring your victory at all times.
Take COD, you don't play matches just to play, rather, you play in order to get better, be able to get more kills and progress the leaderboards. Or you play to get better at specific skills, like quickscoping or trickshotting.
That said, there's hardly enough tournaments going on. The ones that are either have ridiculously long time periods of play, people back out because plans are made in real-life that they couldn't have anticipated happening until later and that happens because they are delayed. There should be some sort of multi-ladder tournament system of sorts. That already exists, but it's completely unused.
