You could all read Huxley's Brave New World if you are into the topic of genetically engineered slaves.
To be honest, gene modified babies have to be made the same way assisted contraception is being done, which limits the spread of this practice. For it to become widespread, you'd have to make the regular way of making babies obsolete, which I'm quite sure is impossible.
It's NOT a thing you can do to already developed humans, unless you'd like to rewrite the dna of the bazillion cells that make up a human body.
To be honest, gene modified babies have to be made the same way assisted contraception is being done, which limits the spread of this practice. For it to become widespread, you'd have to make the regular way of making babies obsolete, which I'm quite sure is impossible.
It's NOT a thing you can do to already developed humans, unless you'd like to rewrite the dna of the bazillion cells that make up a human body.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
I can point to the fact that it's never happened before, as I've said before.
If our sample size is all of history, and in all of these events the outcome has not been dystopic then we can safely assume that one more similar event won't be the straw to break the camel's back.
'In all of these events', 'one more similar event'? Tell me how the division of society into genetically modified and non-genetically modified people is comparable to any other event?
You're still stuck in the headspace of "oh, it's just a new product". It's not. It creates entirely new divisions in society.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Not all speculations are equal.
You're right. Your speculation is based on you thinking that you're magically cognizant of all the unknown-unknowns to this topic.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Again you dodge the question... Has society never been divided into can/cannot afford something? I'm pretty sure it happens on a daily basis...
I didn't avoid your question at all. Your question was predicated on the ignorance of gm's nature. You asked when had a product created classism. I told you that gm is much more than a product, it's an entirely new division.
It's a bigger issue than just can/can't afford... which I'll address to your next quote as well.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
You are arbitrarily deciding that modifying genetics is somehow special as compared to everything else in the world.
No, I've decided it's special compared to the mundane products you mentioned. As we've established, it's not just a new product, it's a new division in society - gm and non-gm people. It's not just can/can't afford (though it would likely be an element). Price won't be the only thing that determines whether people choose (assuming they're in a situation where they can choose, which is another set of problems) to pursue gm.
This doesn't just contribute to the can/can't afford division in society, it adds the entirely new genetically modified human/non-genetically modified human division. We have NO IDEA what sort of discrimination, or hatred, or conflict that might result from the creation of this new division. There'll be a majority and minority, and if the minority feels threatened, then you can be sure that the most vocal/extremist/crazy of them will disrupt society (to put it nicely).
To sum up, it's not just a product and it's not just adding to a current division in society - it's creating a new one.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Land/landless classes? First I've heard of it, sure I guess you can make classes out of anything.
You haven't heard of it? You really must brush up on your history, too. Capite censi - Rome's landless poor. Their numbers swelled considerably after the Punic wars, when the aristocrats started dispossessing them of their land for farming. It's because of this that Rome had to change it's army recruitment policy (to allow landless folk in, since there was barely anyone who owned land (a former requirement for service)), and it's because of this change in recruitment policy that people like Sulla and Caesar were able to bring about the death of the republic.
Last edited by Ele; Feb 5, 2015 at 04:09 PM.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Land/landless classes? First I've heard of it, sure I guess you can make classes out of anything.
Forgot you weren't in the US. From our country's creation up to the early 1900's, only landowners were allowed to vote. This created the same type of situation we're currently in with companies controlling politicians, except that control was in the hands of individuals and their families, instead of a conglomerate.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Automobiles? Sure there are only a billion or so of them, but I surely wouldn't call it extreme classism. There's definitely no car vs carless class warfare...
I provided inflated price tags for a reason. For a while, people who had automobiles were very elitist about it and flaunted their wealth by driving around in them.
Originally Posted by ImmortalPig
Computers? Similarly..........
For a short time, having a computer in your house was a very big thing.
Keep in mind I said
Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare
(regardless of duration of said classism)
All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That’'s how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day.
Originally Posted by Redundant
ImmortalPig: You are somewhat poorly educated on the subject as you don't seem to comprehend the technical sides of the problem. I suggest you educate yourself on the subject before making technical claims in the future.
It made me laugh, but it's not very productive.
Wow nice vague deflection.
/You/ seem poorly educated and need to go educate yourself.
Haha see how easy it was for me to rebut you?
Originally Posted by Redundant
Also please learn to make coherent statements. Your one line posts are getting annoying.
A quote needs to be sweet like a bikini, not longer than your own response. I am going to start deleting your posts if you keep doing that.
No, this is the best way to work forums.
You expect me to reply something like;
"About your claims that genetic modification may cause the reintroduction of slavery; that's idiotic and obviously outside the scope of the discussion."
It's still 1 line, but now you are thinking "what exactly did I say?". Quotes exist for a reason Redundant.
Originally Posted by ynvaser
You could all read Huxley's Brave New World if you are into the topic of genetically engineered slaves.
To be honest, gene modified babies have to be made the same way assisted contraception is being done, which limits the spread of this practice. For it to become widespread, you'd have to make the regular way of making babies obsolete, which I'm quite sure is impossible.
It's NOT a thing you can do to already developed humans, unless you'd like to rewrite the dna of the bazillion cells that make up a human body.
In the context of immunization you could just gene therapy the natural born babies.
It can be done that way though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy
For example: https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index...ficiency_Virus
By the way, this is something that exists RIGHT NOW.
No need for sifi references or telling people to go read fiction!
Originally Posted by Ele
'In all of these events', 'one more similar event'? Tell me how the division of society into genetically modified and non-genetically modified people is comparable to any other event?
You're still stuck in the headspace of "oh, it's just a new product". It's not. It creates entirely new divisions in society.
You are arbitrarily deciding that /this/ is different to everything else that has happened in history.
It sounds like an iPhone advert; "This changes everything" - um actually apple it's just another phone it's not that new really...
GM is comparable because in the context of divisions of society it is identical as countless things that have happened before.
Originally Posted by Ele
You're right. Your speculation is based on you thinking that you're magically cognizant of all the unknown-unknowns to this topic.
At least it's not based on the assumption that your favourite dystopian book will come real!
Maybe there will be zombies too!!!1 AND LIGHTSABERS!111
Originally Posted by Ele
I didn't avoid your question at all. Your question was predicated on the ignorance of gm's nature. You asked when had a product created classism. I told you that gm is much more than a product, it's an entirely new division.
It's a bigger issue than just can/can't afford... which I'll address to your next quote as well.
No, I've decided it's special compared to the mundane products you mentioned. As we've established, it's not just a new product, it's a new division in society - gm and non-gm people. It's not just can/can't afford (though it would likely be an element). Price won't be the only thing that determines whether people choose (assuming they're in a situation where they can choose, which is another set of problems) to pursue gm.
This doesn't just contribute to the can/can't afford division in society, it adds the entirely new genetically modified human/non-genetically modified human division. We have NO IDEA what sort of discrimination, or hatred, or conflict that might result from the creation of this new division. There'll be a majority and minority, and if the minority feels threatened, then you can be sure that the most vocal/extremist/crazy of them will disrupt society (to put it nicely).
To sum up, it's not just a product and it's not just adding to a current division in society - it's creating a new one.
I disagree. There are plenty of are/are not's in the world already - even ones that are from birth. Eg gender, race, geography, social status, religion, etc.
(For the sake of argument I'm pretending it's impossible to modify genetics after conception, but as we know that's not true. Consider this point merely to discuss whether GM is /actually/ unique and not analogous to other events.)
Originally Posted by Ele
You haven't heard of it? You really must brush up on your history, too. Capite censi - Rome's landless poor. Their numbers swelled considerably after the Punic wars, when the aristocrats started dispossessing them of their land for farming. It's because of this that Rome had to change it's army recruitment policy (to allow landless folk in, since there was barely anyone who owned land (a former requirement for service)), and it's because of this change in recruitment policy that people like Sulla and Caesar were able to bring about the death of the republic.
Hate to tell you this mate but Rome broke up a while ago. I don't think the 'capite censi' are still around :/
Nice trivia though.
Originally Posted by hawkesnightmare
Forgot you weren't in the US. From our country's creation up to the early 1900's, only landowners were allowed to vote. This created the same type of situation we're currently in with companies controlling politicians, except that control was in the hands of individuals and their families, instead of a conglomerate.
I provided inflated price tags for a reason. For a while, people who had automobiles were very elitist about it and flaunted their wealth by driving around in them.
For a short time, having a computer in your house was a very big thing.
Ok, if we are going to accept this logic then I think we have to accept the iPhone logic too.
Should we accept that mundane things create classism, or not?
So far the only acceptable classism example for Ele is "rome had this law one time". On the other hand Hawk is arguing that mundane things like cars and computers create classism - and predicates it on some kind of elitism.
<Faint> the rules have been stated quite clearly 3 times now from high staff
Yes, you are poorly educated as you seem to believe that changing a living organism's genome so it becomes immune against pesticides is possible. Seeing as you link to a source of gene therapy, I would like to inform you that so far gene therapy has been incredibly unsuccessful. It has little to do with the topic at hand anyway. Gene manipulation is about creating organisms as you want them, not changing existing individuals.
Making a person immune to a pesticide would require changing many genes, not just a single one. The idea behind gene therapy is mostly “fixing” one gene that codes one single protein. The diseases that have been pinpointed to being caused by one single corrupted gene
I see you put some more effort to improve the quality of your posts at least a little so I won't delete this post. Look at how other users do it, they don't seem to find it difficult to use forums without raping their posts with terrible formatting. Ele and protonitron are good examples.
Maybe you will improve a little more in the near future.
edit: As for the reason why I don't post a proper response, I am not too interested in discussing with you. I am just moderating stuff because that's what I do.
Making a person immune to a pesticide would require changing many genes, not just a single one. The idea behind gene therapy is mostly “fixing” one gene that codes one single protein. The diseases that have been pinpointed to being caused by one single corrupted gene
I see you put some more effort to improve the quality of your posts at least a little so I won't delete this post. Look at how other users do it, they don't seem to find it difficult to use forums without raping their posts with terrible formatting. Ele and protonitron are good examples.
Maybe you will improve a little more in the near future.
edit: As for the reason why I don't post a proper response, I am not too interested in discussing with you. I am just moderating stuff because that's what I do.
Last edited by Redundant; Feb 5, 2015 at 07:54 PM.
