For a grappling mod, i really think that tippy01.tbm should be considered. It is very similar to aikido.tbm, but brings a whole new aspect to the dojo.
Instead of your standard ground level dojo, you have a dynamic standing platform. You may be able to lift someone, but the ground may not be the most stable at first, giving your opponent valuable frames to try and re-establish their dominance.

Tippy01.tbm should be added to the poll.

Mods that should be on the list & why.

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Mods voted for:

----Kicking category:

--------kickbox - probably a bias. the only kicking mod i partially understand.
--------taekkyon - tk players say it's good, hell if i know, but i better believe people who play these mods.
--------erthtkv2 - erth is tk player, probably know what he is trying to accomplish with mod settings.

----Striking category:

--------wushu3box - gold standard wushu3 in a box (octagon), comebacks are not limited, can jump off from walls, decent fun mod, created for competative play and quite suitable imo
--------rk-mma - well balanced striking mod, not an expert in it, to go in details, but this is the very definition of middleground between wushu and ninjutsu.
--------stabjutsu_original - more dynamic version of ninjutsu, less leg camping, more free movement.

----Grappling category:

--------greykido - only decent mod from options provided

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Mod suggestions:

----2 mods to add to grappling category:

--------spiritwrestlingfix - good skill based alternative to abd, it's well balanced due to timed dq and only self dm.
--------wrist dq included, ankles dq excluded, hence tripod holding is partially mitigated. created for competative play.

--------aikido7 - no leg/torso grab, only self damage, double grabs deformations are mitigated, shovel effectivity reduced. created specially for competative play. currently used by team aikido.

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Striking mods list concerns:

----mushu in any form - anything instagib / low dm / opener based should not be considered competative. Thats common sense.
----the fact that some of staff members decided to promote mushu soloely in attempts to piss off / troll vocal wushu players debating on forums,
----which resulted in current situation, doesn't mean that it's okay. it's rather sad.

----Orthodox wushu mods concerns

--------wushu3 - gold standard, but there is no dojo, hence for serious competative play it will be running all over. best wushu mod up to date, but not for competative play.
--------wushu4 - short matchframes version of wushu3, i made it specially for beginner/intermediate players and was used as such for some time in order to get new folks familiar with wushu,
--------but not to take too much time waiting in queue, same concerns ans wushu3

--------zakshu - very close to wushu_2015, so also not a fan of, pushing people away / limiting comebacks because of danger to fly off is not much fun imo.

--------wushu - extremely outdated, obvious random dm/frac issues, short distance, opener focused
--------wushufixed - quite outdated, obvious random dm/frac issues, short distance, opener focused
--------wushu_pro - somewhat outdated, obvious random dm issues

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Grappling mods list concerns:

----aikidobigdojo - cancer of toribash, not defined, messed up meta
----lenshu3 - not defined, messed up meta, even worse than abd
----tenshindo_fixed - mixed feelings, too far from each other, will cause no grab situations on competative play,
----grappling mod should be about grappling, so tori & uke must be close to each other to ensure grabs.
----aikido - flawed for competative play, $1000 tourney proved as culapou become finalist using only shovel
----sambo-off - same picture as above
----rb_greykido - not as good as classic greykido
----judofrac - errr.. nope, way too much chance included + way too different from all the other

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Features you'd like to see the competitive clan system support/remove
Any forseeable issues with balance from any suggestions made.

i would like to see divisions/groups/leagues to prevent farm on shit clans and add more sport-ish flavour.

Just wanted to add some precisions to explain how zakshu and wushu_2015 are not "very close" because they both have a dojo. It would be like saying aikido and aikido7 are very close.

Wushu_2015 has a proper point distribution system which makes the meta way deeper, requiring the players to actually aim their hits or play the "positioning game" to have a clean hit on high value parts. It also makes blocking an actually viable solution since limbs take way less damage and your opponent doesn't get to score 30k for hitting your arm, he'll just get a few hundred points.
Wushu_2015 has higher dm/frac tresholds than zakshu, which makes fracs and dm rarer but also more rewarding and requiring an actual good hit. Zakshu's tresholds are pretty low and give too much space to randomness.
Wushu_2015 has a slightly larger dojo, and yes it makes pushing people away a viable solution, but so is the case with lenshu, rk-mma or stabjutsu, anything with a ring gets a new win-goal besides dq and points. It doesn't limit comebacks, you don't need to comeback further than the distance inbetween you and your opponent ; if you push too hard, overshoot and get disqualified for it it's not "comeback limitation", it's punishement for executing a poor comeback and pushing with all your strenght like a thick nob.
"Fun" isn't the main concern, "Fair" is. Mods on that list must be fair, rewarding, and hard enough to have an interesting competition and "separate the boys from the men"

striking_LG_beta.tbm is the same thing as wushu_2015 except forearms and shins now share the same damage multiplier value. ho and also, since it's not called wushu, people can't complain "dojos kill the freedom of wushu", cuz you know, it ain't wushu.

If I were to choose the mods that best suit a competitive atmosphere for Clans it would mostly be Clan League orientated mods. They are tried, tested, and work. Aikidobigdojo (ABD) is the only one that's not always played in Clan League that definitely works well for a Clan Mod list for warring.

So in order:

1) ABD
2) Lenshu3ng
3) ErthTKv2
4) Judofrac/Swfixed
5) Boxshu_Mushu_v3 (Although I wish there were a v4 where fractures were turned off)


Essentially every clan that engages in wars knows how to play ABD. Lenshu3ng is an absurdly balanced mod that's very consistent and most clans can play. ErthTKv2 just feels better than standard TK as a striking mod, mostly because of the No DQ inside the dojo, and the higher DT. Judofrac vs. SWfixed, I think they both test pretty similar things. I think self damage can be glitchy, and I think 70 TF can be dicey too. Maybe a happy medium can be found. And boxshu_mushu is super approachable, low skill floor higher skill ceiling, the better duelers tend to be very consistent in the mod despite it being instagib, it's fun, and it's very popular so the community will be happy.

I think you could include greykido in that list if you really wanted to, I just personally disagree with it based off how the competitive meta has been approaching the mod lately. If you were looking for another clan mod, RK-MMA doesn't suck either, but I will say it has a very high skill floor.



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And the biggest thing I want to see is actual matchmaking. You shouldn't get to choose any opponent to fight for a rating. Any "choose your opponent" style system is just noob farming, and it's what ruined our current ELO system. Or at least one thing that did.

in response to: those that talked about wushu_2015

wushu_2015 isn't on the list specifically because of it's point system (the reasons the others were on there were because of high playcount and to see which of those the wushu community would approve of). rather than being more competitive, I'd say it's more of an introductory wushu than regular wushu. any good wushu player will make blocks with elbows and knees, so the fact that you can do literally no damage to arms or legs makes it severely easier for newer players to block. I'd say if you're getting your arms hit to shit in a wushu match you aren't playing correctly anyway, or doing moves that would be advantageous in a comeback scenario. this is because the closest limbs to your head are your arms, and you wouldn't want to go head first into your opponent would you? I see what you were aiming for but it actually went the opposite way. if I can make comebacks feet first every game without setting up properly or flailing around and doing random stuff, and still win because my legs take minimal damage it's not very competitive. the way I see it, the regular toribash point system in wushu punishes you for coming back without at really good plan of attack, if you go feet first and you opponent kicks your feet away and gets decent points I'd say he deserved those points, and if that's a gameplan he can use, wushu_2015 takes that away, because it is now not rewarding at all to play like that. anyway that's just an example but what I'm getting at is that wushu_2015's point system is not good.

I have to strongly disagree Mwah ^^
From what I've seen from random players in the public wushu_2015 room, the matchs tend to be way more exciting than they were with the previous versions of wushu (at that skill level). Without a defined point system like wushu_2015 has, all the striking mods just become a crab fest ; people wait with their head away from their opponent and comeback with their legs first and flail wildely, hoping to hit something, anything really, since hitting the body or limbs can give approximatively the same crazy high amount of points if you hit hard enough ; no real reward for precision, position and strategy, it's mostly straight encounter and brute force. Boring !

I'm really not sure any good wushu player can block with elbows/knees fists/feet, especially with 50tf. During all the wushu matchs I played and witnessed I've very rarely seen proper 0 point blocks on purpose. So yes, the low limb damage/points make blocking easier than before, and attacking / scoring good points becomes harder ; but that encourages players to take more risks since they can defend their sensible parts more easily, creating more action in general, daring more movement, a more dynamic fight. Also head/neck and crotch being more balanced point wise, players tend to be more careful when rushing in, not giving their crotch first as it is pretty much as dangerous as going head first.

"the regular toribash point system in wushu punishes you for coming back without at really good plan of attack, if you go feet first and you opponent kicks your feet away and gets decent points I'd say he deserved those points, and if that's a gameplan he can use, wushu_2015 takes that away, because it is now not rewarding at all to play like that."

If you go feet first and your opponent just get to camp/wait and kick your legs for a large amount of points, it means you have a huge OP advantage as soon as you have slight lead in points, it becomes pretty much impossible for your opponent to come in, in any way. Wushu_2015 precisely aims to take that away, just waiting to kick your opponent in any part that will come close to you gives boring gameplay results. With wushu_2015, if someone has a point advantage and waits his opponent legs first, his opponent can come in with a solid defense to position himself better or counter-attack and try to score a decent amount of points without being punished by a 60k leg hit.
The "classic" point system is just shallow and has never been thought true, proof is all the classic wushu mods use the exact same point distribution than aikido. It's never been thought off that a mod based on striking and scoring points should probably have a different point system than a mod based on submission and in which points have very little importance, when the point system is precisely the core of striking mods and everything revolves around it.

In a lot of fighting sports which have wins by points, you don't get the same amount of points for hitting the body or the head, and you don't get points for hitting limbs, or else you'd just have to wait for someone to throw any hit and touch the limb he's attacking with, that wouldn't make sense. That's what wushu_2015's point system is aiming to bring : the limbs are used to defend your core/body and attack your opponent's core/body, and the core is where the real points are at.

"rather than being more competitive, I'd say it's more of an introductory wushu than regular wushu"

I don't understand that tho. It's not supposed to introduce players to an old mod no one plays anymore, it's supposed to replace it. Become a new standard, the new regular wushu. It probably feels that way because you know the old wushu, but old wushu must be forgotten.

I'm talking about wushu because that's where that point system is applied right now, but this is true for any other striking mod. Lenshu3ng is put on a pedestal as the ubber competitive striking mod, but I find it boring as feck tbh. People just stay low to the ground with knees firsts and flail wildely at each other hopping to get the best hit or a DM. It's dull.

That's what those striking_HG/MG/LG mods are here for as well : having one consistent point system for every striking mods.

Edit :

Also keep in mind that defense, the ability to block =/= defensive playstyle.
Wushu_2015 points re-balance the attack/defense. It's easier to defend/block than before, and therefore harder to attack/hit your opponent (who can defend more easily as well and as a smaller "scoring surface"), but it's a big nerf to the defensive-playstyle.
Explaination : with the new point system, you can play very aggresively, attack and move a lot and still use your limbs to defend properly. But it's harder to camp on one spot with a leg ready to kick (defensive playstyle) as you become easily readable and the attacker will know how to come in with a minimum amount of points inflicted to him, in opposition to the old system where you know camping with a leg ready to kick would be ez points no matter how the other player comes in.

The gameplay of wushu and other striking mods has developped around a "broken" point distribution system exported from a mod that has nothing to do with striking in the first place (aikido.tbm). So yes, the gameplay has evolved in the wrong direction for years, those changes aim to rectify that. I guess I understand why it feels weird and broken for people who played the wonky point system for years, but it was just dead wrong from the start. And as much as I enjoyed playing the classic wushu mods for the years I've played them, and you know I've always been a shameless wushu white-knight and always have welcomed new wushu mods with open arms, the classic point system and lack of dojo just suck major asses.

i don't think you understand how elo or any competitive matchmaking system works. what are you talking about when you say 'farming' to get to the highest rank? people get to the highest rank by being the best at whatever it is, and it's natural that people climb in ranking the more they play. aside from this, we have already accounted for things like this in our current system and we are looking to test it soon to make sure it works.

well, there is a difference between competition and what people want to see. sure, people want to see skillful matches between masterful players, but if these masterful players are being beaten by running or shoveling in a competitive scene, then it's on them to figure out how to match the competition. that being said, we're doing the best that we can to remove all of those cheesy tactics and mods with this mod discussion. while we're looking for the most competitive mods, we are looking for a larger mod list than the clan league provides, and is the entire reason this discussion thread was created.


yes, we are already looking at implementing most (if not all) of the clan league mods, but we are looking for a much larger list. we have created this discussion thread in hopes of finding a lot of new competitive mods that we can implement into that list.

there has been a lot of discussion in the council regarding how to make our new system as polished as possible, and we have already come up with several ways to avoid "noob farming", etc. our system wouldn't be considered competitive if you could get to the top by facing the lowest ranked clans.

one, you should take away the mindset that a "boring" playstyle should be changed in order to make the mod more competitive. if wushu is based around "crab"-style comebacks and waiting for your opponent, that's just what it is. of course there are ways to counter this just like any other "boring" move but I won't even touch on that.

you've said that the ability to block doesn't equal a defensive play style, and of course it doesn't because in toribash in general you are given several places in which you can block (hands, elbows, knees, feet). that's not what I was getting at, the fact that it is easier to block so much so that you only get the bare minimum points hitting a limb literally influences a defensive playstyle. I'd be willing to bet that odlov would win 10x more in wushu_2015 than any other wushu mod, not because the point system, layout, or mod in general is better; but because this mod favors defensive plays. that's just how it is, when your entire arms and legs take a max of 100 damage on a decent hit you can't argue against that. attacking in wushu, while you should be cautious will no matter what leave you open for an attack as well. if I'm playing 100% defence in wushu_2015 this leaves me with more options, if anything this mod influences the very things you said it was combating.

crabstyle comebacks are inherently safe and if you do it properly can minimize the damage you take

waiting for the other player to comeback is totally viable in this mod because if they come at you, you can just throw your limbs in the most defensive position and take little to no damage

sure you could say that you have one spot to aim at pretty much (not counting the obvious head) but that also takes away more dynamic making that the only way you can win

wushu players complained about running, so someone put in a dojo
then they complained about not having enough freeplay space
then they complained about the point system because they didn't know how to block

wushu players want everything, but don't know how to implement it so that it can be used competitively, which seemed to be the ultimate goal. so for competitive, no this is just not a good mod in more ways than one. for wushu players, they may enjoy it but it has too many flaws to be taken seriously. (also not mentioning any of these other mods your talking about because I haven't looked at them)

then just use wushu3box. pointing system is the same, there is a box, arguably no running(you can run in lenshu if you're good enough), there is enough space to maneuver.

yes it's not as fun as wushu3, but it's more competitive.

imo wushu is a big part of the TB community, and should be included. wushu3box is as close to competitive as you can get, so just use it. what's the problem with it?

i'd rather we went back to brushu and used that for our wushu striking mod, most people were happy back then . it is easy to run in however every wushu mod that isn't sacrificing freedom is, including all the box/ring variations. if a player can get point advantage he's good enough to run inside a ring/box. it's an evil we have to live with.

my other choices for striking mods;

rk-mma: constant engagements, running is extremely difficult(unless in the last 120 frames). though there aren't many highly skilled players in this mod, compared to lenshu, with games that can end in a flash if the opponent doesn't know what he's doing(due to being launched out).

lenshu3ng falls short over rk-mma for me. it's pretty easy to successfully run in, unless you're highly skilled and can set up a decent comeback instantly, otherwise you're probably going to lose. the large ring makes this mod a lot more forgiving than rk-mma(granting that they don't run), a sub-par comeback will most likely result in being behind in points, where in rk-mma the game most likely could be over - something to keep in mind.


me, inoob, fatulbrown and zero started the mushu dueling trend mainly because of the "luck" aspect. they are mainly aikido duelers while i was a non-grab dueler. this mod leveled the playing field for everyone. the matches being "consistent" simply isn't true, unless you're vsing someone with barely any toribash knowledge.